needhelp!
09-12 11:32 AM
thanks IV
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dpp
07-20 01:17 PM
H1Bs taken care by California and Vermont centers. 485, 131 and 765 are handled by Nebraska and Texas centers.
Also, Nebraska is big and main center. They know how to handle load.
Here are the EAD statistics (real numbers):
Year Total received Approved
2000 1,451,527 1,325,840
2001 1,813,479 1,698,448
2002 1,745,976 1,573,842
2003 2,156,095 1,977,344
2004 1,640,703 1,694,623
2005 1,744,961 1,541,531
2006 1,462,583 1,188,770
By seeing above numbers, you can see how USCIS handles load of millions of EAD applications every year. so, 600K is not a surprise for them. In 2003, they got more 2 million applications, but they handled well. But it may be take one or two months extra, i.e. 3+2 = 5 months maximum to get your EAD. Thats for sure. They will be prepared for that when you they allow us to file.
If you already applied for EAD now, then you will for sure have a EAD by December.
Not trying to be pessimitic her but any new hires will need to be trained, and infrastructure need to be set up. All these things do not happen overnight.
There are dependancies. I-485 information needs to be entered in the system and A # on I-140 need to be crosschecked. If one is not available already then it needs to be generated. In any case, 5 minutes per EAD is still a conservative figure.
All these add to the time.
Also, due to H-1B pile (65 K +20 K+15K= 100K cases pending), this may not take priorty and resources may be diverted.
Also, Nebraska is big and main center. They know how to handle load.
Here are the EAD statistics (real numbers):
Year Total received Approved
2000 1,451,527 1,325,840
2001 1,813,479 1,698,448
2002 1,745,976 1,573,842
2003 2,156,095 1,977,344
2004 1,640,703 1,694,623
2005 1,744,961 1,541,531
2006 1,462,583 1,188,770
By seeing above numbers, you can see how USCIS handles load of millions of EAD applications every year. so, 600K is not a surprise for them. In 2003, they got more 2 million applications, but they handled well. But it may be take one or two months extra, i.e. 3+2 = 5 months maximum to get your EAD. Thats for sure. They will be prepared for that when you they allow us to file.
If you already applied for EAD now, then you will for sure have a EAD by December.
Not trying to be pessimitic her but any new hires will need to be trained, and infrastructure need to be set up. All these things do not happen overnight.
There are dependancies. I-485 information needs to be entered in the system and A # on I-140 need to be crosschecked. If one is not available already then it needs to be generated. In any case, 5 minutes per EAD is still a conservative figure.
All these add to the time.
Also, due to H-1B pile (65 K +20 K+15K= 100K cases pending), this may not take priorty and resources may be diverted.
ashutrip
06-21 11:36 AM
Checked with my lawyer. 20 cases pending since January. Atlanta..
My Labor was filed April 15th, 2007. EB2. 'In process'.
u mean 20 for the month of january?
My Labor was filed April 15th, 2007. EB2. 'In process'.
u mean 20 for the month of january?
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bigboy007
06-02 08:43 PM
If the current law passes , god forbid it wont. It is indeed scary to many : Becoz its primarily becoz of all backlog processing centre Labors, H1 sixth year extensions etc. I dont know how the heck designed this draft and i am sure all those senators wouldnt havebeen aware of all these H1B , GC Employment based numbers some staffer would have done this .
more...
reddysn
06-05 11:14 AM
Wendy welcome to IV and thanks for participating in the discussion.
Can you please take some time to send web faxes(faxid- 20) to all the state senetors using the link on the home page , if you have not already done so. and also call them if time permits.
Coming to ur note , I guess , people who apply from F1 to I-485 you are referring are not the primary green card applicants. They are dependents on primary applicatns. If not, can you tell me what they are studying and how they can apply green card from F1? I am not aware of this route.
Numerous students on F1 visa applied 485 and got their GC these years.
Can you please take some time to send web faxes(faxid- 20) to all the state senetors using the link on the home page , if you have not already done so. and also call them if time permits.
Coming to ur note , I guess , people who apply from F1 to I-485 you are referring are not the primary green card applicants. They are dependents on primary applicatns. If not, can you tell me what they are studying and how they can apply green card from F1? I am not aware of this route.
Numerous students on F1 visa applied 485 and got their GC these years.
sameold
09-12 10:18 AM
Hi Milind,
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Just made my first contribution of $100
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Thank you Milind for stepping up and motivating people
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raydhan
03-08 10:13 AM
Here's the link for the live hearing of the Judiciary Committee
http://www.capitolhearings.org/
Click on room Dirksen 226 and let everyone know what you hear. Not all have access to internet from work
Enjoy!
This is the right link. It is very clear today. Interesting discussion.
http://www.capitolhearings.org/
Click on room Dirksen 226 and let everyone know what you hear. Not all have access to internet from work
Enjoy!
This is the right link. It is very clear today. Interesting discussion.
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ItIsNotFunny
10-22 10:34 AM
Can someone suggest a good attorney (based on your personal experience) for sending AC21 letters to the USCIS? If possible please post the cost involved as well. Preferably in CT/NY/NJ area, any other area is fine too. Thanks!
Not to scare you but you sure your current employer will not revoke 140, look at the recent experiences from people.
Not to scare you but you sure your current employer will not revoke 140, look at the recent experiences from people.
more...
mirage
08-18 11:11 AM
This is what we are sending..
Charles Oppenheim / Visa Section
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington, DC 20520
From,
Your Name/Your Address/EB-3 India Applicant
Priority Date: May 2003
Some City,
OK-2#####
Dear Sir/Madam,
Sub: Statistics on Employment Based AOS(Adjustment of Status) applications pending at USCIS under various categories
I am writing to you to express my sense of helplessness over the unpredictability of Visa Number allotment to various employment based category. I want to bring to your attention that it�s been nearly a �Decade� since we saw any meaningful Visa Date movement from year 2001 for EB-3 Green Card applicants from India.
It is important to know that despite of severe visa retrogression and random visa cutoff date movements, USICIS or DOS hasn�t released any official information on how many Adjustment of Status applications are pending at USCIS under various categories which leaves thousands of AOS(Adjustment of Status) applicants in complete darkness and dependent on guessing games by various Law firms.
A green card application requires enormous amount of efforts and money from the beneficiary and his/her employer. People who are waiting for 7-8 years now would have had already spent average $15,000-$20,000, in maintaining their statuses and keep the Green Card process going on. Being stuck in a green card process keeps us bonded with 1 employer, job type etc.
We need to know if there is any light at the end of the tunnel. We need to know for how long we have to live our life in limbo. If there is hope than we need to be patient and plan to live like that for another 1-2 years. But if there�s no light at the end of the tunnel than we need to move on with our careers and other family commitments. Only your office and USCIS can help us by releasing statistics on the number and categories of applications pending with USCIS people waiting in this category can plan their lives accordingly.
It will be a great help if DOS or USCIS could tell us about the number of AOS application pending at USCIS along with their Categories(EB-3, EB-2, EB-1) and chargeable country.
We have been waiting for a decade and continue to wait would it be reasonable to request you for some guidance with regards to the Visa allotment. I request your office to provide some statistics on home many Adjustment of Status applications are pending at USCIS.
We understand that you work with in the limits of the law as set by the Congress and are limited by various constraints that are beyond your agency realm of work. We appreciate your hard work and sincerely thank you for all the hard work.
God Bless America!
Thank you for you attention,
(Your Name OR EB-3 India Applicant )
Priority Date: April 02
Category: EB-3
Member ImmigrationVoice.Org
Copy Sent to
Honorable Secretary of State
Dr. Condoleezza Rice
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington, DC 20520
Honorable Director, USCIS
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service
20 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20529
Citizenship and Immigration Services Ombudsman
Department of Homeland Security
Attention: Case Problems
Mail Stop 1225
Washington, D.C. 20528-1225
Senator John Cornyn
Chairman - United States Senate Judiciary subCommittee on
Immigration, Border Security and Citizenship
517 Hart Senate Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20510
Main: 202-224-2934
Fax: 202-228-2856
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren
Chairwoman - United States House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Citizenship,
Refugees, Border Security, and International Law
102 Cannon HOB
Washington, D.C. 20515
Telephone (202) 225-3072
I also wanted to send the letter, but saw a ton of comments on the original letter. It would be a good idea, if some one goes thru the comments and update the letter in the original post. I think we should all send a decent letter.
Charles Oppenheim / Visa Section
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington, DC 20520
From,
Your Name/Your Address/EB-3 India Applicant
Priority Date: May 2003
Some City,
OK-2#####
Dear Sir/Madam,
Sub: Statistics on Employment Based AOS(Adjustment of Status) applications pending at USCIS under various categories
I am writing to you to express my sense of helplessness over the unpredictability of Visa Number allotment to various employment based category. I want to bring to your attention that it�s been nearly a �Decade� since we saw any meaningful Visa Date movement from year 2001 for EB-3 Green Card applicants from India.
It is important to know that despite of severe visa retrogression and random visa cutoff date movements, USICIS or DOS hasn�t released any official information on how many Adjustment of Status applications are pending at USCIS under various categories which leaves thousands of AOS(Adjustment of Status) applicants in complete darkness and dependent on guessing games by various Law firms.
A green card application requires enormous amount of efforts and money from the beneficiary and his/her employer. People who are waiting for 7-8 years now would have had already spent average $15,000-$20,000, in maintaining their statuses and keep the Green Card process going on. Being stuck in a green card process keeps us bonded with 1 employer, job type etc.
We need to know if there is any light at the end of the tunnel. We need to know for how long we have to live our life in limbo. If there is hope than we need to be patient and plan to live like that for another 1-2 years. But if there�s no light at the end of the tunnel than we need to move on with our careers and other family commitments. Only your office and USCIS can help us by releasing statistics on the number and categories of applications pending with USCIS people waiting in this category can plan their lives accordingly.
It will be a great help if DOS or USCIS could tell us about the number of AOS application pending at USCIS along with their Categories(EB-3, EB-2, EB-1) and chargeable country.
We have been waiting for a decade and continue to wait would it be reasonable to request you for some guidance with regards to the Visa allotment. I request your office to provide some statistics on home many Adjustment of Status applications are pending at USCIS.
We understand that you work with in the limits of the law as set by the Congress and are limited by various constraints that are beyond your agency realm of work. We appreciate your hard work and sincerely thank you for all the hard work.
God Bless America!
Thank you for you attention,
(Your Name OR EB-3 India Applicant )
Priority Date: April 02
Category: EB-3
Member ImmigrationVoice.Org
Copy Sent to
Honorable Secretary of State
Dr. Condoleezza Rice
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington, DC 20520
Honorable Director, USCIS
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service
20 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20529
Citizenship and Immigration Services Ombudsman
Department of Homeland Security
Attention: Case Problems
Mail Stop 1225
Washington, D.C. 20528-1225
Senator John Cornyn
Chairman - United States Senate Judiciary subCommittee on
Immigration, Border Security and Citizenship
517 Hart Senate Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20510
Main: 202-224-2934
Fax: 202-228-2856
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren
Chairwoman - United States House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Citizenship,
Refugees, Border Security, and International Law
102 Cannon HOB
Washington, D.C. 20515
Telephone (202) 225-3072
I also wanted to send the letter, but saw a ton of comments on the original letter. It would be a good idea, if some one goes thru the comments and update the letter in the original post. I think we should all send a decent letter.
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ragz4u
03-08 02:05 PM
He has asked the absent senators via staffers that if they do not want to come to hearings, they can leave this committee and let others take their place. Apparently they need atleast one democrat to proceed.
He is waiting for atleast one more senator to turn up before 3.15 pm else hearing will be adjourned
Senator Cornyn is offering a new amendment now (#6107 ) illegal aliens convicted in felony cannot file for petition for spouse...again this is not related to us
He is waiting for atleast one more senator to turn up before 3.15 pm else hearing will be adjourned
Senator Cornyn is offering a new amendment now (#6107 ) illegal aliens convicted in felony cannot file for petition for spouse...again this is not related to us
more...
chisinau
07-22 09:21 AM
Hi Scedule A!
I am RN from Moldova, waiting for DS230 approval since October 2006.
Are there anyone in the same situation?
It seems to me that no one care about nurses on this forum. So I decided to highlight the problem briefly.
Why should nurses have their personal immigration schedule and different faster line?
1 - The shortage of nurses is more severe then ever in the US history. The fact is confirmed by DOS, The American Hospital Asociation, and the Coalition to Improve Healthcare Staffing.
2 - Existing mechanisms are not able to improve the situation, Vice versa, the situation is going to be vorce in the near future.
3 - Healthcare is one of the most relevant aspects of national economy, because it affects all other spheres of the economy.
4 - The preimmigration qualifining process for nurses is long, expensive, and complicated. Aproximately 2 - 3 years (CP or CES, NCLEX-RN, IELTS, or TOEFL+TSE) long, and $5000 - $7000 cost. If we add these 2-3 years to the period of immigration we will have outstanding 5 - 9 years of waiting! And we should bare in mind that this is the only way for nurses.
5 - From the last 50000 visas for Schedule A only 17000 were used by nurses and PT, other were used by their spouses and children. So the actual number of nurses intered the US is realy small.
The situation is critical!
As far as I see the problem, the only choice for us is allocation of visa numbers(recaptured or new) directly for schedule A. All other options are not good enought either for nurses or for the US Healthcare, because now we are in EB3 and have to compete with other professionals in the respective category. So we have to wait for 4 -5 years to get our CG. And practicaly, as I mentioned above, the GC is the only option for nurses, because emploiers do not want to sponsor us for a non immigrant visas.
Cornin recent ammendment was too good to became true! It was awful to read that it was defeated...
Nurses, where are you?!
Please, reply and share your opinions.
I am RN from Moldova, waiting for DS230 approval since October 2006.
Are there anyone in the same situation?
It seems to me that no one care about nurses on this forum. So I decided to highlight the problem briefly.
Why should nurses have their personal immigration schedule and different faster line?
1 - The shortage of nurses is more severe then ever in the US history. The fact is confirmed by DOS, The American Hospital Asociation, and the Coalition to Improve Healthcare Staffing.
2 - Existing mechanisms are not able to improve the situation, Vice versa, the situation is going to be vorce in the near future.
3 - Healthcare is one of the most relevant aspects of national economy, because it affects all other spheres of the economy.
4 - The preimmigration qualifining process for nurses is long, expensive, and complicated. Aproximately 2 - 3 years (CP or CES, NCLEX-RN, IELTS, or TOEFL+TSE) long, and $5000 - $7000 cost. If we add these 2-3 years to the period of immigration we will have outstanding 5 - 9 years of waiting! And we should bare in mind that this is the only way for nurses.
5 - From the last 50000 visas for Schedule A only 17000 were used by nurses and PT, other were used by their spouses and children. So the actual number of nurses intered the US is realy small.
The situation is critical!
As far as I see the problem, the only choice for us is allocation of visa numbers(recaptured or new) directly for schedule A. All other options are not good enought either for nurses or for the US Healthcare, because now we are in EB3 and have to compete with other professionals in the respective category. So we have to wait for 4 -5 years to get our CG. And practicaly, as I mentioned above, the GC is the only option for nurses, because emploiers do not want to sponsor us for a non immigrant visas.
Cornin recent ammendment was too good to became true! It was awful to read that it was defeated...
Nurses, where are you?!
Please, reply and share your opinions.
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GCBy3000
02-12 02:26 PM
Check here on how to support IV with contribution.
http://immigrationvoice.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=25
Hi All,
I'm new to immigration Voice. I've read abt this in immigration portal and understand that a group of people are leading this. I wish them all the best and i extend my full support. Also i heard that this group is collecting funds. Can someone please point me where would i contribute.
Thanks
RAJ
SWA: Virginia
SWA Receipt Date (Priority Date): October 31,2002
EB2 - RIR
Forwarded to Philadelphia Regional DOL on June 22, 2004
BEC Case Number: P-04282-*****
45 Day Letter Received and Replied : Feb 2005
http://immigrationvoice.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=25
Hi All,
I'm new to immigration Voice. I've read abt this in immigration portal and understand that a group of people are leading this. I wish them all the best and i extend my full support. Also i heard that this group is collecting funds. Can someone please point me where would i contribute.
Thanks
RAJ
SWA: Virginia
SWA Receipt Date (Priority Date): October 31,2002
EB2 - RIR
Forwarded to Philadelphia Regional DOL on June 22, 2004
BEC Case Number: P-04282-*****
45 Day Letter Received and Replied : Feb 2005
more...
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jasmin45
09-08 02:17 PM
The unbelievable growth in India made me explore a bit in terms of investments, ended up with the financial advise and recommendation from experts that we cannot directly invest in equity as an NRI. Only investment allowed it seems, for NRI is in real estate. Not sure whether this is true. There holds the surprise I could not add up the numbers in real-estate in India. Real estate in India is darn expensive even by international standards (with per capita GDP of $700->$2500 per annum).
Flats in Indian hub cities: 2-bedroom, 1000 sq ft apartment for average $200,000-$300,000 and above. (www.99acres.com) Condos in most major metros in USA: 2-bedroom, 1000 sq ft average $200,000-$300,000 (google housing)
Given that, median income in US is 50 times more than India. I thought the Indian cities are up in bubble. Next, look at agricultural land prices.
Agricultural land in Northern part of India is average $50000 - $250,000 per acre (www. 99acres.com) where in east, west and south is about $20000-$200,000. In Villages its about $15000 to $50000 per acre.
Agricultural land in US is in the range of $6000-$15000 per acre. ($12,000 per acre in NJ, $6,000 per acre in California and $8,000 per acre in Florida. From USDA website)
Now You can do the math. Commercial land is even more expensive in india.
The reason, people say, population density. Now lets look at this factor, the density in India is much higher than USA. But, compare to NJ, NJ is actually slightly more densely populated than most states in India. Real estate is regulated by government in India that prevents easy buying and selling and land survey records are not properly maintained which makes it easy to bump up the price.
Can someone explain to me how in the world, the farmers in India who make less than $1000 per annum continue to own land that is valued at several $100K? How many can afford a home in that country?
Is this what economic experts call "bubble"? I believe there needs to be a correction in the market in India to avoid a disaster.
Good analysis. How long did you take to put this together this comparison?
Flats in Indian hub cities: 2-bedroom, 1000 sq ft apartment for average $200,000-$300,000 and above. (www.99acres.com) Condos in most major metros in USA: 2-bedroom, 1000 sq ft average $200,000-$300,000 (google housing)
Given that, median income in US is 50 times more than India. I thought the Indian cities are up in bubble. Next, look at agricultural land prices.
Agricultural land in Northern part of India is average $50000 - $250,000 per acre (www. 99acres.com) where in east, west and south is about $20000-$200,000. In Villages its about $15000 to $50000 per acre.
Agricultural land in US is in the range of $6000-$15000 per acre. ($12,000 per acre in NJ, $6,000 per acre in California and $8,000 per acre in Florida. From USDA website)
Now You can do the math. Commercial land is even more expensive in india.
The reason, people say, population density. Now lets look at this factor, the density in India is much higher than USA. But, compare to NJ, NJ is actually slightly more densely populated than most states in India. Real estate is regulated by government in India that prevents easy buying and selling and land survey records are not properly maintained which makes it easy to bump up the price.
Can someone explain to me how in the world, the farmers in India who make less than $1000 per annum continue to own land that is valued at several $100K? How many can afford a home in that country?
Is this what economic experts call "bubble"? I believe there needs to be a correction in the market in India to avoid a disaster.
Good analysis. How long did you take to put this together this comparison?
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Libra
09-11 02:15 PM
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gc_check
03-10 08:38 AM
I would say we all need to know our status well first :) There is no such status as EAD. It is Adjustment of Status (AOS) Pending. I had done multiple refi and all I had to tell them is GC pending. They get copy of EAD just to have a reference that I am legal here at the time of application (since it has an end date). Had no issues so for.
vrbest, Who is your lender. Can you name the bank you worked with. It might help the some in this group. I have done a Mortgage and 2 re-fi in the past with no issues, but last time, I had issues with Bank of America, Wells Fargo and one other bank (don't remember name). The reason was being on AOS/EAD, They were fine with H1b, but did not understand what EAD / AOS is. It all depends on the underwriter and if he is not knowledgeable on the Visa issues, then you are done. You can't ask for an alternate underwriter. I was able to secure through a credit union though.
vrbest, Who is your lender. Can you name the bank you worked with. It might help the some in this group. I have done a Mortgage and 2 re-fi in the past with no issues, but last time, I had issues with Bank of America, Wells Fargo and one other bank (don't remember name). The reason was being on AOS/EAD, They were fine with H1b, but did not understand what EAD / AOS is. It all depends on the underwriter and if he is not knowledgeable on the Visa issues, then you are done. You can't ask for an alternate underwriter. I was able to secure through a credit union though.
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srgadi
09-10 01:33 PM
Contributed $100 just a min ago. Google Order #151408234928192
Sorry cannot make it to the rally due to personal reasons.
Sorry cannot make it to the rally due to personal reasons.
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krishnam70
07-23 08:36 PM
Thanks for letting us know about your friends. At least we can see that USCIS is trying to clear 2004 applicants. They will be taking care of 2005 soon then. :D
Dont mean to dampen your spirits, happy for the poster of this thread. Could have been lucky to get approved while people like me ( Sep 2003) PD waiting 485 filed 3 yrs ago.
anyway cheers -- go partying
Dont mean to dampen your spirits, happy for the poster of this thread. Could have been lucky to get approved while people like me ( Sep 2003) PD waiting 485 filed 3 yrs ago.
anyway cheers -- go partying
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sparuthi
08-13 05:02 PM
Yes. It may help, but EB3 is not the one who is going to get any piece out of it, as EB2 is increasing in huge amount. Even if it is CURRENT for 10 years, thats not going to help anyone below that level as everyone will qualify for EB2 in future, almost all the future candidates will have minimum of 5 years experience.
Well, if one decided to continue the process of waiting, there won't be any career to talk about at the end.
Not possible for all to go to EB2 as most of the companies hesitate to spend huge amount again and same is applicable to the individual too. It may not be worth at the end to spend another 5K on this. Well said, we should then fight with our own friends (because they may not like us to get the Lion's share) before going to DOS and USCIS.
I am waking up from 'abroad' dream. The real dream in front is "Home", without any issue that works for me.
For EB3 i think there are 3 opportunities.. one pastures are turning green near home and India is not a bad place to be at this time ( i have heard salaries of 30-35L being common these days). thats one.. combined with 1 if the employer agrees (assuming they have operations in india), EB3 can be in india for a year and come back on L1A in an executive/managerial position and get into EB1 (few of my friends have done this successfully)...that was 2... and the last one is try to get into EB2 in the US which can be risky as others have pointed out..
so choices is there.. one has to be bold to take the step
Well, if one decided to continue the process of waiting, there won't be any career to talk about at the end.
Not possible for all to go to EB2 as most of the companies hesitate to spend huge amount again and same is applicable to the individual too. It may not be worth at the end to spend another 5K on this. Well said, we should then fight with our own friends (because they may not like us to get the Lion's share) before going to DOS and USCIS.
I am waking up from 'abroad' dream. The real dream in front is "Home", without any issue that works for me.
For EB3 i think there are 3 opportunities.. one pastures are turning green near home and India is not a bad place to be at this time ( i have heard salaries of 30-35L being common these days). thats one.. combined with 1 if the employer agrees (assuming they have operations in india), EB3 can be in india for a year and come back on L1A in an executive/managerial position and get into EB1 (few of my friends have done this successfully)...that was 2... and the last one is try to get into EB2 in the US which can be risky as others have pointed out..
so choices is there.. one has to be bold to take the step
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nixstor
04-30 02:57 PM
Tony Edson, Charlie Oppenheim's boss explaining the process of how the PD's are moved in VB. Says CIS uses 90% of the EB visa numbers. Says their job in last quarter becomes tough because of unpredictability and talks about the 95% utilization rate of visa numbers with in DOS
saimrathi
08-10 01:19 PM
What are you smoking?? Its Aug 10 today..
Diluted drinks wont help you - Have " straight up "...
Its August 12th today and we are really screwed
Diluted drinks wont help you - Have " straight up "...
Its August 12th today and we are really screwed
gc_on_demand
04-30 03:21 PM
Will there be a voting today to decide to move further in this process ? OR commette chairman will decide based on hearing ...
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